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Fridays of Sword & Sorceress 24: an interview with Michael Spence & Elisabeth Waters
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Nov. 6th, 2009 | 10:25 pm
For this week's edition, we have a special double interview: Michael Spence & Elisabeth Waters. Since they co-wrote their story, it seemed only appropriate to do their interview together:
>Tell us about yourself.
MS: I've been a theology scholar, a teacher, a chronic grad student, a security officer, a web designer, a fencer, a singer, an instrumentalist, a podcast radio announcer and actor, a writer, and an editor. Which means, among other things, that I've felt quite at home in the world of the Treasures stories. At the moment my wife and I are living in the Midwest, and by the time SWORD AND SORCERESS 24 sees print I hope to have gainful employment once again.
EW: I like a quiet and simple life. My idea of the perfect vacation spot is a Benedictine convent. My major leisure activity is reading, although I do enjoy some television programs - does anyone else watch Castle? I really enjoy that - I think the more writers you know, the funnier the show is.
> How did you get into writing?
MS: Hmm. It may encourage others if we put it this way: You don't really get into writing (small w). You simply write. Hands on keyboard, pencil to paper, finger in sand, whatever. And if you like it, you keep doing it. Period.
If, on the other hand, you mean getting into Writing - capital W, full-time, pays-all-the-bills - I'm not there yet. Consult Mr. Grisham. (But he'll probably tell you to keep going at the small-w writing until you stumble upon something people like in a big way. That's what he did.)
That's the "how." The "why" is also fairly simple: I like stories, and I've always admired people who can tell them well. Many will tell you they began writing seriously after they read something that was so atrocious they knew they could do better, and I confess I've had those moments. But primarily it was aspiring to the craft. To use Diane Duane's title, SO YOU WANT TO BE A WIZARD...aye, I did.
EW: I was working for Marion Zimmer Bradley and living in her household, where writing fell somewhere between 'highly contagious' and 'required.' Of the four of us living there at the time of her death, the only one who wasn't selling fiction professionally was a well-known writer and performer of filk music.
> Why write fantasy?
MS: The broader answer is that I use "fantasy" to mean "anything that steps outside consensus reality," so that it covers the spectrum from Jonathan Swift to Larry Niven to Scott Sigler. In that sense, fantasy allows you to explore the limits of real life by going beyond those limits (cf. Clarke's Second Law), in a way not available to merely mimetic fiction. (It's a shame, incidentally, that "mainstream fiction" is used in contrast to the fantasy spectrum. As George Slusser has pointed out, American literature has embraced the fantastic from the beginning; see the works of Edgar Allan Poe, Nathaniel Hawthorne, Herman Melville, and Mark Twain.) It expands the writer's toolkit, if you like. There's a fuller answer in my article "To Find the Truth, Look to the Lie," which I invite you to check out.
Using the narrower meaning of "fantasy": Of course, there are different hues along that spectrum, and if I've come closer to the non-scientific end it's because I'm not as knowledgeable in the hard sciences. Not that this is a barrier to writing, mind you. It's not essential that what you write about be real in the reader's experience, but that you make it real by the way you tell the story. Using the rigor of scientific investigation helps, even when you're writing about dragons and elves.
EW: If writing is a game of "what if...?" then fantasy is the unconstrained version. You can do anything you can get the reader to believe.
> What is the worst mistake a writer can make?
MS: Not to write. It's that simple. And I know, since I've committed this error far too often.
EW: I agree with Michael. I think the second-worst mistake is to bore the reader, which produces the "life is to short to waste time finishing this" reaction.
> Tell us about your Sword & Sorceress 24 story.
MS: Back in SWORD AND SORCERESS 14 there was this story entitled "The Blade of Unmaking," about a knife you really didn't want in your collection if you knew what was good for you. It was written by one Elisabeth Waters, and I was intrigued by its insight. When we collaborated on "Salt and Sorcery" for S&S 16, I suggested that Stephen, its male lead, a chronic grad student (ahem), have Lord Logas and Lady Sarras from "The Blade of Unmaking" as academic advisers. Lisa liked the idea, and thus the University of Albion's College of Wizardry evolved from a background reference into a world in its own right.
The Blade and other Treasures, including the Holy Grail, reside with their Guardians at the College. More specifically, the Blade is an anti-Treasure, as much to be restrained as guarded. In other stories we've encountered the Grail and, most recently, the Scholar's Pin, both on the other side of the aisle. Now we're dealing with an anti-Treasure once again, this one a rod that has a nasty effect on both its holder and his or her subordinates (see a modern translation of Psalm 125:3). Let's just say, you don't want the Sceptre of the Ungodly resting in a display case in the White House.
Edward, the Sceptre's designated Guardian, and Lady Alyssa, who guards the Blade of Unmaking, have been sent to find the Sceptre and take it into custody. As you might expect, those prove to be two quite different tasks.
EW: Psalm 125 is part of the Daily Office, which means I read it once a week. I've been thinking for years that "the sceptre of the ungodly" sounded like a great anti-Treasure, and this year Michael and I got around to writing its story. There are still other Treasures and anti-Treasures out there - "I've got a little list..." (It lives on my PDA, where I can make additions as needed - the Scholar's Pin was inspired by something I saw in a museum exhibit about four years ago.)
Collaborating with Michael is a lot of fun. I remember one conversation during the writing of "Salt and Sorcery" that ran something like this: "We've got to give Stephen's wife a motive for wanting him to pass his Ordeal," followed several minutes later by "Wait a minute, we're giving her a motive for murder." Michael's wife Ramona served as a consultant on that story, and her input was invaluable. Fortunately for Michael, he has now finished his PhD.
> Can you share an excerpt (a paragraph or two)?
"I'm working on a plan," Alyssa said, wishing the plan she was coming up with was less risky. "What sort of dancing do we do at the ball tonight?"
"I forget what it's called," Edward said, "but we sort of walk forward and back very slowly. I think it's so people can admire - or sneer at - each other's clothes. Don't worry," he added quickly, "my mother has wonderful taste; I'm sure you'll look gorgeous."
"Somehow, Edward, that's not my biggest worry at the moment."
> Pick any one book to recommend. Other than SWORD & SORCERESS.
MS: You mean besides CHANGING FATE, by Elisabeth Waters? (Do check that one out; it's superb.) Ray Bradbury's FAHRENHEIT 451, which like most of Bradbury's work, falls in the middle of the fantasy spectrum. SF writers don't predict the future, contrary to popular opinion; they depict the present, often by isolating various trends and showing us where they could go if unchecked. And Bradbury, in the fifties, observed several factors that have helped to make us what we are today: political correctness, the readiness to "dumb down" entertainment to pull in the greatest possible audience, people's unwillingness to take time to think and reflect, and the devaluing of education and educators. He's nailed us.
In fact, if you get what Bradbury's saying in FAHRENHEIT 451, you understand why we must, must continue to teach literature.
Even - perhaps especially - to the torchbearers of technology.
I'd also be most pleased if you read and reply to the articles at "Brother Osric's Scriptorium" (http://michaelspence.us).
EW: Only one book? TRICKSTER'S QUEEN by Tamora Pierce. It's the sequel to TRICKSTER'S CHOICE, and both of them are permanent residents on my PDA.
>Tell us about yourself.
MS: I've been a theology scholar, a teacher, a chronic grad student, a security officer, a web designer, a fencer, a singer, an instrumentalist, a podcast radio announcer and actor, a writer, and an editor. Which means, among other things, that I've felt quite at home in the world of the Treasures stories. At the moment my wife and I are living in the Midwest, and by the time SWORD AND SORCERESS 24 sees print I hope to have gainful employment once again.
EW: I like a quiet and simple life. My idea of the perfect vacation spot is a Benedictine convent. My major leisure activity is reading, although I do enjoy some television programs - does anyone else watch Castle? I really enjoy that - I think the more writers you know, the funnier the show is.
> How did you get into writing?
MS: Hmm. It may encourage others if we put it this way: You don't really get into writing (small w). You simply write. Hands on keyboard, pencil to paper, finger in sand, whatever. And if you like it, you keep doing it. Period.
If, on the other hand, you mean getting into Writing - capital W, full-time, pays-all-the-bills - I'm not there yet. Consult Mr. Grisham. (But he'll probably tell you to keep going at the small-w writing until you stumble upon something people like in a big way. That's what he did.)
That's the "how." The "why" is also fairly simple: I like stories, and I've always admired people who can tell them well. Many will tell you they began writing seriously after they read something that was so atrocious they knew they could do better, and I confess I've had those moments. But primarily it was aspiring to the craft. To use Diane Duane's title, SO YOU WANT TO BE A WIZARD...aye, I did.
EW: I was working for Marion Zimmer Bradley and living in her household, where writing fell somewhere between 'highly contagious' and 'required.' Of the four of us living there at the time of her death, the only one who wasn't selling fiction professionally was a well-known writer and performer of filk music.
> Why write fantasy?
MS: The broader answer is that I use "fantasy" to mean "anything that steps outside consensus reality," so that it covers the spectrum from Jonathan Swift to Larry Niven to Scott Sigler. In that sense, fantasy allows you to explore the limits of real life by going beyond those limits (cf. Clarke's Second Law), in a way not available to merely mimetic fiction. (It's a shame, incidentally, that "mainstream fiction" is used in contrast to the fantasy spectrum. As George Slusser has pointed out, American literature has embraced the fantastic from the beginning; see the works of Edgar Allan Poe, Nathaniel Hawthorne, Herman Melville, and Mark Twain.) It expands the writer's toolkit, if you like. There's a fuller answer in my article "To Find the Truth, Look to the Lie," which I invite you to check out.
Using the narrower meaning of "fantasy": Of course, there are different hues along that spectrum, and if I've come closer to the non-scientific end it's because I'm not as knowledgeable in the hard sciences. Not that this is a barrier to writing, mind you. It's not essential that what you write about be real in the reader's experience, but that you make it real by the way you tell the story. Using the rigor of scientific investigation helps, even when you're writing about dragons and elves.
EW: If writing is a game of "what if...?" then fantasy is the unconstrained version. You can do anything you can get the reader to believe.
> What is the worst mistake a writer can make?
MS: Not to write. It's that simple. And I know, since I've committed this error far too often.
EW: I agree with Michael. I think the second-worst mistake is to bore the reader, which produces the "life is to short to waste time finishing this" reaction.
> Tell us about your Sword & Sorceress 24 story.
MS: Back in SWORD AND SORCERESS 14 there was this story entitled "The Blade of Unmaking," about a knife you really didn't want in your collection if you knew what was good for you. It was written by one Elisabeth Waters, and I was intrigued by its insight. When we collaborated on "Salt and Sorcery" for S&S 16, I suggested that Stephen, its male lead, a chronic grad student (ahem), have Lord Logas and Lady Sarras from "The Blade of Unmaking" as academic advisers. Lisa liked the idea, and thus the University of Albion's College of Wizardry evolved from a background reference into a world in its own right.
The Blade and other Treasures, including the Holy Grail, reside with their Guardians at the College. More specifically, the Blade is an anti-Treasure, as much to be restrained as guarded. In other stories we've encountered the Grail and, most recently, the Scholar's Pin, both on the other side of the aisle. Now we're dealing with an anti-Treasure once again, this one a rod that has a nasty effect on both its holder and his or her subordinates (see a modern translation of Psalm 125:3). Let's just say, you don't want the Sceptre of the Ungodly resting in a display case in the White House.
Edward, the Sceptre's designated Guardian, and Lady Alyssa, who guards the Blade of Unmaking, have been sent to find the Sceptre and take it into custody. As you might expect, those prove to be two quite different tasks.
EW: Psalm 125 is part of the Daily Office, which means I read it once a week. I've been thinking for years that "the sceptre of the ungodly" sounded like a great anti-Treasure, and this year Michael and I got around to writing its story. There are still other Treasures and anti-Treasures out there - "I've got a little list..." (It lives on my PDA, where I can make additions as needed - the Scholar's Pin was inspired by something I saw in a museum exhibit about four years ago.)
Collaborating with Michael is a lot of fun. I remember one conversation during the writing of "Salt and Sorcery" that ran something like this: "We've got to give Stephen's wife a motive for wanting him to pass his Ordeal," followed several minutes later by "Wait a minute, we're giving her a motive for murder." Michael's wife Ramona served as a consultant on that story, and her input was invaluable. Fortunately for Michael, he has now finished his PhD.
> Can you share an excerpt (a paragraph or two)?
"I'm working on a plan," Alyssa said, wishing the plan she was coming up with was less risky. "What sort of dancing do we do at the ball tonight?"
"I forget what it's called," Edward said, "but we sort of walk forward and back very slowly. I think it's so people can admire - or sneer at - each other's clothes. Don't worry," he added quickly, "my mother has wonderful taste; I'm sure you'll look gorgeous."
"Somehow, Edward, that's not my biggest worry at the moment."
> Pick any one book to recommend. Other than SWORD & SORCERESS.
MS: You mean besides CHANGING FATE, by Elisabeth Waters? (Do check that one out; it's superb.) Ray Bradbury's FAHRENHEIT 451, which like most of Bradbury's work, falls in the middle of the fantasy spectrum. SF writers don't predict the future, contrary to popular opinion; they depict the present, often by isolating various trends and showing us where they could go if unchecked. And Bradbury, in the fifties, observed several factors that have helped to make us what we are today: political correctness, the readiness to "dumb down" entertainment to pull in the greatest possible audience, people's unwillingness to take time to think and reflect, and the devaluing of education and educators. He's nailed us.
In fact, if you get what Bradbury's saying in FAHRENHEIT 451, you understand why we must, must continue to teach literature.
Even - perhaps especially - to the torchbearers of technology.
I'd also be most pleased if you read and reply to the articles at "Brother Osric's Scriptorium" (http://michaelspence.us).
EW: Only one book? TRICKSTER'S QUEEN by Tamora Pierce. It's the sequel to TRICKSTER'S CHOICE, and both of them are permanent residents on my PDA.
